Week 12: Can we Really Teach Writing?
I remember learning to write when I was younger. At first, it was so difficult for me. I didn't get it, and every time I would get papers back from my teachers they would have corrections all over them with the dreaded red pen! I always have had difficulty with writing, and also writing the way that my teachers have wanted me to write. I just have always wrote how I've wanted to write.I also remember having to do peer reviews. Those were the worst because I never knew what I was supposed to change for them. I also, have always dreaded to APA and MLA format. I even remember being in high school and my teacher teaching us MLA because she said "that's what you will need to know for college". Now here I am, only using APA for the rest of my life. 😂
In the video that I watched for this week, he started off by talking a lot about grammar. How grammar is a big part in what teachers look for when they grade your writings. But this isn't the only thing that teachers should be focusing on. I totally remember this when I was in middle school. I would have so many red marks with what I had done wrong grammar wise. Then when we would have to peer review papers, I would just look for grammar stuff because that is all I knew.
He also talks about some methods that teachers can use when teaching writing to their students that might make it easier to help them.
- Scales: You can train students on scales or rubrics to help them or teach them to understand the standards to which their writing is going to be evaluated
- Environmental: Can give them a clear objective to work on. Give them a team of students to work with and provide them with materials to work with (ex: research materials) so they might just be working on analyzing the research
He talks about how the bottom quartile thinks that they are really good at grammar. When they actually do the tests given... they actually are almost 50% away from how they thought they actually would do. This is because they are living up and meeting their internalized standards. I think that this happens a lot in writing and also just school in general. A student might be thinking that they are doing really well at something because they are meeting their own standards, when in reality, they aren't meeting the teachers standards. Therefore, they might be actually failing or not actually getting the material at all. I know sometimes this happens to me and I might be meeting my own standards, but actually not even meeting my professors standards at all. I think that in writing, students are thinking that they are doing it correctly because they believe that their writing is amazing. This is when the teacher needs to step in and give their standards so that they student can figure out how to make sure their standards can meet.
So I have some questions for you to answer and I really do encourage you to watch the video because it gives you some good ways to maybe teach writing to your students: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fInpYL7Aag&feature=youtu.be
1. Do you remember learning to write when you were younger? How did that go for you?
2. What do you think about the two methods above? Do you think those would work?
3. If you watched the video, what do you think?
4. How would you teach writing to your students?
5. Have you ever had the internalized standards thing happen to you? Where you think you're doing excellent, because you're meeting your standards, but in reality you aren't meeting the teachers?
6. Is grammar important to teach when teaching writing or should we be focusing on something else?
7. How can we work with students on meeting their internalized standards but also the standards of the teacher also?
(question 6) I think grammar is important to teach our students because after school, jobs are going to be looking for that, so we want to set them up for success in the job world. However, I think when writing is required to assess our knowledge about a topic or comprehension of a story, grammar shouldn't be as important. I remember when I was in school, I always struggled with grammar and writing, so whenever I would have to write something about what I knew or understood, my grade would suffer even though my knowledge about the subject was correct. I think in those cases, grammar shouldn't matter as much as the material and subject matter the students are writing about.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you completely. As long as a student understands the material they should be good with their work. It seems unfair to give a student a bad grade based on their grammar when they are able to comprehend well. When I was in school it felt like grammar was the most important thing, and it made me not think of the actually writing.
DeleteI would agree with kristen, I believe grammar shouldn't matter if the students understand the subject or can comprehend the story and can write what are the main points. I remember my grammar would also suffer due to my grammar errors. I think as longest the students understand the knowledge they should get their paper back to correct their errors on grammar but wont get the first grade for it until they fix their errors.
Deletei totally agree guys! grammar is so important for that reason, but it isn't the most important thing when it comes to writing. To me, it can be taught and maybe one writing assignment needs to be over just grammar for them to get the hang of things, but they need to also be focusing on other things. When students see that the teacher is making all these marks on their paper just for grammar, they forget about everything else they need to be focusing on.
DeleteKirsten, I completely agree with you. I think it is very important to learn and understand grammar since it is so vital in professional settings but it should not always be graded when you are writing in school. I believe the content and comprehension in writing is more important than grammar.
DeleteI'm also going to answer question six. I know that in almost all schools, they teach grammar along with writing. I remember having a grammar book that we used to have to do worksheets on. However, I'm incredibly partial to the idea that, when you're teaching writing, you shouldn't always require "correct" grammar. In scientific papers or research papers, I can see where this might be an issue. But in essays and personal response, I don't think that grammar is always the appropriate thing to focus on. I think we should focus more on our students being concise in their word choice, because really, you don't need to have good grammar if your word choice is correct. As long as you can use words correctly and relay the point of your paper to your audience, I'm not sure that grammar really matters. It should be taught for sure, but I'm not so sure that it really needs to be the main focus of writing. When you think about writing forms such as poetry, they very rarely focus on "correctness" of their writing, and instead they really hone in on the creative side of things. This isn't really being succinct, but I guess in a way, they're still getting their point across, and this is not done through proper grammar.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with you Paige. I basically talked about the same thing in my comment, I don't think teachers really need to focus so much of the grammar aspect of it but rather word choice, sentence structure etc... Yes it is important to have good grammar but at the end of the day people will still know what you are talking about if you misspell one word. They won't understand if you can't express your ideas in writing.
DeleteI totally agree! teachers need to be focusing on other things rather than making sure every single spelling is correct. People make mistakes, and that shouldn't be the main focus. I also agree that you should focus more on letting your student be creative.
DeleteI agree with your take on grammar Paige. Its apparent nowadays that its important to have mastered grammar in all fields of writing. Whether it be journalism, an 12 page essay, or even a memoir to an old friend. I agree with the part of your statement about not needing an all "correct" type of grammar required for everything you make. I think its fine to use what is called "jargon" language like "aint" and "gonna" in when writing a letter, reflection or just talking to your friends. They can change and morph over time just like any language can. My teachers always had to correct my spelling whenever she made us do a exit ticket for an activity that we did in class. It was annoying at first but as I got a little older I kind of understood where she was coming from. Grammar has historically been a divide between the upper class and the lower class.
DeleteI would like to respond to question #1, I kind of remember learning how to write when I was younger. I remember starting by tracing letters. I thoroughly remember have an alphabet book where I had to trace the letters and words for each letter in the alphabet. Other than that all I remember is constant writing assignment and being mediocre at writing. I did not get confident in writing until college because we had to take a class and write tons of papers.
ReplyDeleteTo answer question #2, I believe it is important to teach grammar because it is needed in certain settings. For example, when in professional setting or writing an educational/ professional essay. I do also believe that forcing grammar can cause things to become not so culturally relevant in a classroom because grammar effects the way people must speak as well and people have many different dialects that can change their grammar.
- Deja Shelton
Hey Deja I agree with your statement that teaching grammar is important because people, whether they be a future employer or a waiter at a restaurant, judge you based off of how you look and how you talk. It's unfortunate but that's the way it is, so that's why I think we have a responsibility to teach our students "proper" grammar. Knowing when to use certain grammar in certain places is a part of life.
DeleteI have always sucked at writing papers. Even now, i feel as if i still don't get what i should be doing. I have however loved writing papers where i can just be creative and not focus on making sure my paper is always correct.
DeleteI also had basically the same experience you did. When I was younger my teachers only fixed my grammar, I thought they did this because I was an ENL student but as I got older my teachers still only fixed my grammar. I know there were more things wrong with my papers but they only focused on that aspect. I also hated doing peer reviews because I would also just fixed grammar because that is what I saw my teachers doing so that is what I did. I always felt bad for my peers because I didn't know how to fix anything else, because I was never fixed on anything else. I was never really taught how to form a sentence like a compound, complex etc.. I also was never properly taught when to use commas or semi colons, to this day I still don't really know. I think teachers should focus more on the structure of sentences and what the writing is saying rather than the grammar part of it.
ReplyDeleteTo answer question #6, I believe that when it comes to teaching writing for the first time that grammar isn’t important in that moment, but that when writing is mastered that grammar is an important concept that has to be taught. I think that when it comes to writing students should focus on the structure of the letters being written, how to form a sentence correctly, what letters go where, and how to correctly write the letters so they don’t become to big or to small. Eventually I think grammar becomes an important aspect along the lines when it comes to understanding what one is trying to comprehend within their writing.
ReplyDeletei totally agree. i think it can be important, but to just focus on that or focus very hard on just grammar is not okay. I think there is a lot more to be taught in writing. If that's what is the main focus, then we will not be focused on anything else.
DeleteHayley Bohannon
ReplyDeleteFor your question one I remember learning how to write when I was younger and learning how to write the correct way. I remember struggling with the way I formatted my handwriting. It would almost be sideways and be diagonal across the page. As I got older I remember having trouble with learning grammar. I do not remember exactly learning all the parts in writing. I think that if I learned it in a fun way, I might have done better with writing papers all the way throughout high school. I felt like I always had more work because I had to catch up on my writing skills. Not having a clear idea on the foundations hurt me for the future.
I don't remember having fun while learning to write. I just remember writing numerous papers and also doing peer reviews. those were the worst.
DeleteIn answering question one “Do you remember learning to write when you were younger? How did that go for you?” I remember writing in elementary but they wouldn't be so hard grading on my paper. When I was around 7-8 grade my teacher gave me my paper back with all red marks. I was so discouraged to fix my paper. I was embarrassed to show my classmates my paper. I hated when we had to swap paper and let our classmates read and write notes on my paper because the first thing I'll see on my paper would be proof read, fix grammar, and this sentence doesn't make sense. I still struggle with my writing. I downloaded an app that will grade my paper and highlight everything that I have to fix on my paper. I rather have a computer grade and not have people tell me Im wrong and to fix it because I would feel embarrassed that I'm still struggling with my writing.
ReplyDeleteI SO AGREE. I hated doing peer review because students would just give me grammar reviews because that's what we knew to do. I hated it. i also still struggle with y writing sometimes. That's also really cool. I didn't know they had an app like that!
DeleteI can relate to the way you learned how to write. Before constantly having writing assignments, that still to this day hasn't changed, all I remember is tracing letters and filling out worksheets similar to that. I think just like some people fear math, the same thing is happening for writing because you're being corrected, but you don't actually know why. There's no clarification or explanation to allow you to fully comprehend a concept, let alone be fluent. You can look at all these marks or comments on your paper telling you you missed a few commas and other things, but it's not being explained in depth of how it should be corrected. All it takes is a few extra minutes where the teacher has an opportunity to talk with the students while writing something or after, so they can correct it together. For example, the teacher isn't simply pointing out things that need to be fixed, they actually prompt questions or make suggestions to get the students to think about ways they can make changes.
ReplyDeleteDora, I agree with and appreciate your statement because it reminded me back to when I was in high school in English class. My teacher always tried to give us a writing prompt every week in order to help us prepare for the AP test. Every week I dreaded those things, not because I consider myself a bad writer but because I was tired of the way they made me feel if I got a paper back where it was marked up and I believed I deserved either a better score or an explanation. Eventually, my teacher started to have one on one's with everybody but it still doesn't feel good to have a paper that you gave your all on marked up with all of your mistakes. Maybe teachers should start marking papers with how well a student did.
DeleteI specifically remember doing a writing activity in sixth grade that involved us having to read our narratives to the class. I felt really good about my paper and wanted to share what I had. Moving to seventh grade, I remember really learning about grammar in my homeroom class. We would write sentences and paragraphs and a peer would have to evaluate what we wrote. Our teacher and peers would use red pens and would circle mistakes that they found and write in the comments. I have always felt that I was very good at writing, up until this point. I realized that I struggle with grammar (even today). But with that being said, I agree that we should focus on grammar when learning how to write. It is very important, especially in the world we live in today. I can see and relate to the red pen marks lowering confidence in our writing skills. But on the other hand, it could be very beneficial for us to see our mistakes so we can change them and learn.
ReplyDeletei had to write a narrative and it was the worst. my favorite is creative writing. that to me is easier because we get to write what we want. i think we need to make writing fun for our students, so they will want to do it. i hear so many people say they hate writing papers, but if it was fun for them they wouldn't hate it.
DeleteTo answer question 1, I do remember learning how to write. I remember having a writing book that we would get out in the mornings and the teacher would have us do one or two pages from the book. I remember my handwriting was not very good in elementary school, and I did not like how my writing pages looked after I was done.
ReplyDeleteI had a similar experience as you did regarding writing. I remember when writing essays. not all of my teachers would give out rubrics on how they would grade so I was lost as far as what they expected from me. All they gave me was the prompt and that's it. I would spend a lot of time going over it and making sure I had all the points that I thought I would get graded on. When the time came, I saw all the red marks on the paper and was discouraged and didn't like writing much because of that. I think grammar is important to teach in writing because once we get older, society looks at that a lot. Whether it's our resume or a cover letter to apply for a job, grammar is something that is looked at. With this being said, I do not think it should be the only thing we focus on. The ideas behind the student's writing is what we should focus on and grade on, we can help them improve their grammar. If a student has great ideas but is always get marked down points due to grammar, they will get discouraged from writing.
ReplyDeleteit is really hard to write when you don't know what you're being graded on. that is the worst. it can become discouraging if you are not getting praised for your ideas or what you have done right in your paper. there should be a red pen for what you could change and another pen for what is really good and should stay the same!
DeleteTo answer question 5 I did not meet a lot of standards and I was not given the chance to be taught with a different method instead I was enrolled in summer school every year in elementary. There was many instances where I thought I was doing well but turns out I was not. So with doing field like with math I use different approaches to help my buddy instead of following the one way standard. With writing I was okay with however with math and reading it was my weak points.
ReplyDeleteFor question 1, I remember learning how to read and write. I was always so bad at both. I was put into different programs to help me and they did to an extent. When you mentioned the peer reviews, memories started flooding in. I DREADED those, they made me so nervous. I would always try and give my paper to my friend so no one would make fun of me. She would actually help me with my writing, not belittle me because I didn't know where to put a comma. I never excelled in writing and I am still not the best at it. Being taught by different teachers that have different opinions over writing really confused me. Some teachers so "I don't grade over grammer or how you write, I grade what you're writing about." that them gave me the mentality that commas didn't matter. Them some teachers graded crazy hard over grammer and how we spelled and everything we did.
ReplyDeleteI thought I was the only one who experienced this. I also hated doing peer reviews because I hated how i wrote. I also always tried to get a friend to grade mine but sometimes it wouldn't work out and I would be so embarrassed that someone was reading my work. I also had a decent amount of teachers that would grade us on what we wrote instead of grammar. But that didn't really help in the long run cause, how would I improve my writing if they don't help me and let me know what I'm doing wrong.
DeleteI wanna answer your question, Do you remember learning to write when you were younger? How did that go for you? I actually do remember bits an pieces of it. I was really good at reading because I excelled at it but writing was a different story. I remember always getting confused about the grammar and how to properly write the paper. I loved reading stories so I always had a lot in my head as well and wanted to write those. I ended up getting a tutor to help me after school so I could progress in my writing skill. Even though I did, I still struggled through most of my life liking my writing and accepting it. I can say that nowadays I really do like it and feel that I have made some progress.
ReplyDeleteDo you remember learning to write when you were younger? How did that go for you? I do remember learning to write and I was horrible at it. For whatever reason I did not learn grammar. I remember being taught grammar but I never learned it. To this day I struggle with grammatical terms and especially where to put commas. I'm not really sure why none of my teachers noticed how much I was struggling. I was too shy and embarrassed to ask for help. I was good at reading though and I was never embarrassed to read in front of the class. I feel now that I've gotten older I am definitely better at writing but I feel I still have a lot of room for improvement.
ReplyDeleteTo answer question number 6, I think I would teach grammar at a more later stage in the year. I think it is crucial to know about each students sense of phonemic awareness and being able to build words to make complete sentences. Once they all have the knowledge and practice of blending letters to makes sounds together then they can move on to next step in being able to write. Being able to recognize certain words is also important to notice while observing children write/read out loud . After that is mastered, they can begin to understand what they are reading and will able to reflect on their experiences and practice their grammar from there on out.
ReplyDeleteJordan, I completely agree with you. I feel as if this one of the best ways to be able to teach students and see where they are at with it. When I worked at a daycare the Kindergarten teacher did the same thing you described. She let the students sound out the words as they liked and write it out that way as well and like I said before, it was all based off of what you described above.
DeleteI do not remember learning how to write. But I deal with it everyday at work in my higher pre-k room. Some kids only write in all capital letters, only lower case letters, and some a mixture of both. Writing was best when I could trace the letters over and over again. But also visually seeing the word helps me to this day. If I have seen a word at least once, then I can come about on how to spell the word.
ReplyDeleteIs grammar important to teach when teaching writing or should we be focusing on something else?
ReplyDeleteI believe grammer is imporant but it isn't the only important element in writing. Making sure that the text written makes sense and meets the prompt. These are both critical points that make a writing readable. It needs to make sense and achieve the goal of the prompt.
To answer question one, my memories of learning how to write are pretty spaced out. I remember in the earlier grades of tracing capital and lower case letters. I remember doing this in print and cursive. I also remember in earlier grades learning about types of sentences such as simple, compound and complex. Then in fifth grade, we would always start out our days but writing down the paragraph that was on the board and we were to fix any grammatical errors such as capitalizing words, adding or omitting commas, spelling, etc. Then in high school I remember learning how to write essays and research papers in mla format.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I don't remember learning how to write, but I remember learning how to get better at writing. My mom would buy these alphabet and writing notebook with worksheets in it for me to practice. I used to hate it so much back then but now looking back at it I am thankful she had me doing that. As a child I know it helped with my writing, spelling, and pronunciation. Having those worksheets learning how to write and write better, definitely helped me get the nice "teacher" handwriting I have now. The same thing goes for my brother, he has what is called a "girls" handwriting.
ReplyDeleteTo answer your first question, writing was a struggle for me. I think it was because I was left handed, I had trouble holding my pencil the way the teacher was teaching us to hold it.. I thought I was writing wrong so I wrote in so many different ways to try to make my writing like everyone else’s. I wrote numbers and letters weird.. /:
ReplyDeleteI remember having to write cursive in 3rd grade. I struggled with the letter Z. I don't remember anything earlier than that! I would teach my students to write by showing them the strokes on the board and also using a writing booklet so they can trace letters. I do not remember having the internalized standards happen to me during school. I do think grammar is important when learning to write, but we should focus on the letters first. We can encourage students to do their best to meet all standards.
ReplyDelete